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  1. #17
    aka sschefer
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    Re: Here we go ..... More from Stupid... Catch and Release harms fish ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Covelo View Post
    I don't know about the political bent to this statement but it is otherwise true. The other problem is that it only works one way. Take the Smith River for example. This was the last river in the state where you could take a wild steelhead but this was stopped because of the lobbying of the CnR only crowd who think wild steelhead are like unicorns and too pure to kill. There was no biological evidence to suggest wild pops were in decline or that sport take was too great and unsustainable. Yet they banned take of wild fish anyhow. Now if you want to restore the bag limit for wild fish, you need to scientifically prove that doing so will not threaten the current population, even though no such scientific analysis was done to institute the regulation banning take in the first place. The ironic part of the Smith River, an what demonstrates just how unscientific their action on wild steelhead was, is that you can still kill wild salmon on that river (six a year) which is hilarious considering there are more wild steelhead in that river than there are salmon.
    So true. I tried to prove that the trout in Lake Sonoma, CA were actually Native Steelhead from the Russian River and got involved with a group that was pushing the issue really hard. Fortunately, I got side barred by a truly concerned CDFW person who I will not name and he explained why they should never be classified as Steelhead and instead they would remain trout but to satisfy both sides, the possession limit would be reduced. His reasoning was exactly as you have stated.

  2. #16
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    Re: Here we go ..... More from Stupid... Catch and Release harms fish ....

    CA as well as many other liberal run states have REALLY shot themselves in the foot and acted on emotions and not science
    I don't know about the political bent to this statement but it is otherwise true. The other problem is that it only works one way. Take the Smith River for example. This was the last river in the state where you could take a wild steelhead but this was stopped because of the lobbying of the CnR only crowd who think wild steelhead are like unicorns and too pure to kill. There was no biological evidence to suggest wild pops were in decline or that sport take was too great and unsustainable. Yet they banned take of wild fish anyhow. Now if you want to restore the bag limit for wild fish, you need to scientifically prove that doing so will not threaten the current population, even though no such scientific analysis was done to institute the regulation banning take in the first place. The ironic part of the Smith River, an what demonstrates just how unscientific their action on wild steelhead was, is that you can still kill wild salmon on that river (six a year) which is hilarious considering there are more wild steelhead in that river than there are salmon.

  3. #15
    aka sschefer
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    Re: Here we go ..... More from Stupid... Catch and Release harms fish ....

    Agree with what has been said. My point was simply that there are times when it applies and times when it doesnt. I was dramatizing for effect.

    My policy is and always will be to C&R when conditions support it and then not exceed a legal limit. This way, if the fish do not survive I have still not exceeded conservation estimates and the end result will be to help maintain a healthy fishery.

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  5. #14
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    Re: Here we go ..... More from Stupid... Catch and Release harms fish ....

    "I also agree there is no c&r in hunting. Most of us who have hunted for some time get to the point where the killing is not the sole goal of the hunt."
    There IS C&R hunting...I've run hounds on big game for 30 years and have caught and released over a thousand bears as well as hogs and lions across the country...it has never been about the kill for me..that was just where the work would begin!!..I couldn't think of a more gratifying way to hunt than to catch(tree or bay)3 or 4 bears in a weekend and let them go their way and live to be caught another day..a little smarter and weary of people and dogs...the way it should be...CA as well as many other liberal run states have REALLY shot themselves in the foot and acted on emotions and not science, and have passed laws banning THE ONLY CATCH AND RELEASE HUNTING!!.and removed the most effective cost effective and humane tool of population management...I could go on and on and write a novel length rant on the ignorance of liberal ideology, but it would do no good as the left doesn't care about what makes sense and what FACTS are involved and any reason falls on deaf ears...if you can't tell I'm a little bitter and can see other fishing and hunting activities going the same way...makes me sick

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  7. #13
    Senior Member Waterdog's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go ..... More from Stupid... Catch and Release harms fish ....

    Quote Originally Posted by LineStretcher View Post
    So, I'm going Mule Deer (Muley) hunting at the end of the month. How do I C&R a 250lb 8 point buck with a 36" spread and a bullet hole in both lungs and the heart. Is there somewhere else I should shoot it that would allow me to take a picture and then release it. Ok... I know, that was bad.... LOL..

    If Catch and Release makes you feel better then go ahead and do it. As a conservationist I prefer to keep and do my part to manage the wildlife. I take a limit because that's what conservationist say is the right amount to keep the fishery healthy and I tend to believe them.
    No one here (at least in this thread) is arguing the merits of keep or c&r. I agree as long as you are legal it matters not to me if a person keeps limits or practices c&r. I think the point here is the merits of c&r itself. If done right under certain circumstances c&r does not cause high mortality as some say. Do as you think best.
    I also agree there is no c&r in hunting. Most of us who have hunted for some time get to the point where the killing is not the sole goal of the hunt. The quality of the experience and the camaraderie become most important. For example when duck hunting I may shoot none or maybe 1 or 2 ducks and still consider it a great and memorable hunt. There is certain contentment in the hunt experience itself. I know that’s not possible with big game hunting . Anyway the preceding is just me rambling, not even sure what my point is.
    Hunting, Fishing and Labrador Retrievers and at the end of the day a glass of Buffalo Trace Whiskey- Life is Sweet.

  8. #12
    aka sschefer
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    Re: Here we go ..... More from Stupid... Catch and Release harms fish ....

    So, I'm going Mule Deer (Muley) hunting at the end of the month. How do I C&R a 250lb 8 point buck with a 36" spread and a bullet hole in both lungs and the heart. Is there somewhere else I should shoot it that would allow me to take a picture and then release it. Ok... I know, that was bad.... LOL..

    If Catch and Release makes you feel better then go ahead and do it. As a conservationist I prefer to keep and do my part to manage the wildlife. I take a limit because that's what conservationist say is the right amount to keep the fishery healthy and I tend to believe them.

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  10. #11
    Senior Member Waterdog's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go ..... More from Stupid... Catch and Release harms fish ....

    The actual study that the article refers to , only marine shiner perch were studied. The results are not at all clear regarding mortality of the c&r perch. No other species of fish were studied and no other marine environments were studied.
    The study concludes quote “Fishing injuries in nature are likely to depress feeding performance of fish after they have been released, although it is currently unclear whether this has a significant impact on survival.” There basically is no conclusion that there is any extra mortality from c&r. The study is more about mouth injury than fish mortality.
    There are certain circumstances where there is high mortality to released fish. It depends on many factors such how they are hooked, how deeply they are hooked, how long the fight before release, temperature and oxygenation of the water, depth at which they were caught and many other factors.
    Most fly fishermen are c&r fishers. If c&r caused great extra mortality you would see certain rivers littered with fish carcasses. I’ve never seen that unless the die off was due to environmental factors.
    Another example is delta striped bass. Many fisherman release most of the striper(and other species of bass) they catch including dozens of shakers a person may catch in a day. I release 90% of the striper I catch. I have fished the delta for 50+ years and spend a lot of time there. I can’t remember the last time I saw a dead striper floating in the delta.
    One thing I can say is if you catch and keep that fish is dead. Under favorable circumstances if you catch and release, a fish has a favorable chance of survival.
    Hunting, Fishing and Labrador Retrievers and at the end of the day a glass of Buffalo Trace Whiskey- Life is Sweet.

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  12. #10
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    Re: Here we go ..... More from Stupid... Catch and Release harms fish ....

    First CnR has not been shown to have a positive effect for any population of salmon or stealhead that I know of. It works for landlocked species or species with extremely long times to maturity (sturgeon) but its effectiveness for anadromous species like steelhead and salmon is questionable considering a large portion of the adult population is out in the ocean. If it was so effective then there should be many rivers in Calif teeming with stealhead, the Eel River in particular, since they have been CnR only for many years. As a recovery tool it has not worked. Basically it has been a PR campaign so game agencies can say they are doing something even if the effectiveness is questionable or possibly non-existent.

    They have done studies on hook and release mortality for river salmon and steelhead and in general have found that several factors influence survival. First is where the fish is hooked with the gills being the worst. This is the big argument against using bait ina CnR fishery. Surprisingly the tongue also leads to higher mortality. Other factors are water temp; high temp water has lower dissolved oxygen. The one that fishermen can influence is time. The length of the fight and time to release all hurt the fish. Posing for pics being a big one. I believe the regs even state that the fish should not be taken out of the water when being released. So yes CnR does kill fish and kills more fish on a warm water system like the Sac. Remember that when you see someone hook and release salmon all day long on the American after the first big rain.

    Oregon uses hook and release mortality as part of the calculation for quotas used to protect threatened wild populations. This is big on the Columbia River system. Some springer runs of kings are threatened so if the river was left open all season for hatchery fish, hook and release mortality for wild fish could further depress the threatened populations. I think they calculate it at about 8% mortality. Same thing is done for Coho on the Columbia River. Up there, seals get a lot of the released fish especially for Coho. I'd be surprised if Calif didn't eventually adopt a similar quota system on the Klamath or Sac Rivers to account for wild runs that may be threatened. Currently Calif seems to look at entire systems even when that incorporates 2 or more major rivers and does not differentiate hatchery from wild fish for salmon. At least for now.

  13. #9
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    Re: Here we go ..... More from Stupid... Catch and Release harms fish ....

    You know that Catch and Release studies on criminals reveals mixed results also!!!!!! The only benefactors of studies are for those doing the studies, $$$$$$$$ Whalonem

  14. #8
    Salmon chaser Tifoso's Avatar
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    Re: Here we go ..... More from Stupid... Catch and Release harms fish ....

    Now you know what we hunters feel like. ;)

    Take whatever you harvest in the most humane way possible. Period. Anti hunters/fishermen, don't talk with your mouth full.
    Fungaiolo/Cacciatore/Pescatore

    -Lou (Louis)

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